When It's Not "Just Anxiety”: Diagnosing CIRS with Jenna De Kok, MS, RD

In this episode of The Less Stressed Life, I'm joined by my associate registered dietitian, Jenna De Kok, to share the deeply personal journey she and her husband have been on with Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS). After multiple exposures to water-damaged buildings, they both began experiencing unexplained symptoms, with Jenna developing debilitating panic attacks, severe insomnia, neurological symptoms, and overwhelming fatigue. Despite being told by multiple healthcare providers that it was "just anxiety," she continued searching for answers until she finally received a CIRS diagnosis. We also discuss what CIRS is, how it differs from mold illness, why environmental testing matters, and the role of the Shoemaker Protocol in recovery.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

•  What is Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS)
•  Common neurological symptoms of CIRS 
•  The difference between CIRS and mold illness 
•  Trusting your body when answers don't add up 
•  Why environmental testing matters 
•  Finding the right tools for your healing journey 

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ABOUT GUEST:
Jenna is a registered dietitian via her business Nutritiously Jenna and associate practitioner at Less Stressed Life Nutrition. She started working with Christa in 2018 doing mentorship hours for her undergraduate degree. Her passion for women's wellness came from her firsthand struggles flaring with a variety of gut, detox/drainage, nervous system, and energy issues. In January 2026 was when she officially learned that CIRS was a piece of not only her health story but also, her husband's after a variety of exposures to biotoxins in their homes. Through this experience, her goal is helping other "misunderstood" clients better understand how their symptoms can be influenced by the health of their environment.

WHERE TO FIND GUEST:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nutritiouslyjenna/

SPONSOR:
Thank you to Jigsaw Health for being such a great sponsor. 😎  Try their Electrolyte Supreme in the crowd-favorite Fruit Punch flavor this summer.🍓🍹Use code LESSSTRESSED10 on every order for 10% off! 

NUTRITION PHILOSOPHY OF LESS STRESSED LIFE:
🍽️ Over restriction is dead
🥑 Whole food is soul food and fed is best
🔄 Sustainable, synergistic nutrition is in (the opposite of whack-a-mole supplementation & supplement graveyards)
🤝 You don’t have to figure it out alone
❤️ Do your best and leave the rest

WHERE TO FIND CHRISTA:
Website: https://www.christabiegler.com/
Instagram: @anti.inflammatory.nutritionist
Podcast Instagram: @lessstressedlife
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lessstressedlife
More Links + Quizzes: https://www.christabiegler.com/links
Protocols: https://www.christabiegler.com/protocolshop

❓Questions for Christa? Submit them here: https://www.christabiegler.com/questions

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: you don't feel like yourself. Your brain feels on fire. Your nervous system at times feels on fire.

[00:00:06] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and I'm going to guess we have at least one thing in common, that we're both in pursuit of a less stressed life. On this show, I'll be interviewing experts and sharing clinical pearls from my years of practice to support high-performing, health-savvy women in pursuit of abundance and a less stressed life.

[00:00:36] Christa Biegler, RD: One of my beliefs is that we always have options for getting the results we want, so let's see what's out there together

[00:00:54] Christa Biegler, RD: All right. Today on The Less Stressed Life we have back Jenna De Kok. So Jenna is a registered dietician. You may or may not remember her. She's been on the show before. She is a registered dietician within her own business, Nutritiously Jenna, and she's also been an associate practitioner here in my business, The Less Stress Life, since at least 2018.

[00:01:15] Christa Biegler, RD: I love that you put this year because I can't remember, and it feels like an eternity ago. You started ... You came literally physically in person doing mentorship hours for your undergraduate degree, and then you had a passion for women's health coming from your firsthand struggles dealing with a variety of gut and detox and drainage issues, and nervous system issues, and energy issues.

[00:01:37] Christa Biegler, RD: In January 2026 is when she officially learned that CIRS, C-I-R-S, was part of her health story, but also her husband's after a variety of exposures to biotoxins in their homes. Through this experience, her goal is helping others that are misunderstood clients better understand how their symptoms can be [00:02:00] influenced by the health of their environment.

[00:02:02] Christa Biegler, RD: All these things you don't know- 

[00:02:04] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yes ... 

[00:02:05] Christa Biegler, RD: you get to know. So- Yeah .. I have really seen, the sort of the gamut of this as a very much a bystander of Jenna for the most part, but I'll let her tell her story. And I've also seen how much she's just had to absorb so much and understand so much in order to get ahead and to get to a very stable place in her health.

[00:02:26] Christa Biegler, RD: So welcome back to the show, Jenna. When was the last time you were here? Do you remember? 

[00:02:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: I wanna say it was right before kind of the CIRS, let's call it- ... symptoms kicked off really. So about two years ago, actually. 

[00:02:38] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. 

[00:02:38] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I forgot to look up what you came on about at that time, and it's defining- I really 

[00:02:44] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: think we were talking about mold as well.

[00:02:46] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh, funny.

[00:02:47] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So too funny, right? 

[00:02:47] Christa Biegler, RD: We ... Yeah, we may have been talking about our updates, and we were just having this conversation within the last couple of weeks, new updates, et cetera, because how we have handled mold in practice has really [00:03:00] evolved so much over time. And it's essentially you're trying to help people in the lowest cost way possible, in the least overwhelming way possible.

[00:03:09] Christa Biegler, RD: And it's one of those conversations where- The health of your home can be impacting your health overall, and so it's just, we often talk about it's really an awareness situation. But we don't always have the luxury of awareness. Sometimes it bites us in the butt in an unusual way, and that's kinda how this started for you.

[00:03:27] Christa Biegler, RD: So approximately, not quite two years ago tell us a little bit about how this unfolded for you and your SIRS onset story. 

[00:03:34] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. So really I wanna highlight the approximate two years ago, and then even I'll kinda tie it back to symptoms I feel like I've experienced before then, because like- hindsight here is 20/20, connecting the dots on- ... previous symptoms also I experienced. But really the biggest thing, or the best way I could explain, is what felt like out of nowhere I started experiencing really a [00:04:00] lot of, I would say, on- edge anxiety, panic attacks that really started coming out of nowhere for me.

[00:04:06] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: A lot of times, or back in June of 2024 when the symptoms kinda began mainly these kind of an- anxiety, now what I know are, like, histamine, adrenaline surges were occurring at night. So I would wake up in the night, just shoot out of bed. Eventually got to the point where I had complete insomnia, started experiencing muscle twitching.

[00:04:28] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: It really got to the point, too, where these anxiety, panic kinda episodes ultimately became then my whole day. So basically back in 2024, looking back on it, I would describe it as like a two-month-long kind of panic attack that didn't really stop. So super not fun, super out of the norm.

[00:04:49] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Obviously went- Went to the doctor and tried to explain from a functional lens what I thought was going on. We knew in the home we were living in there were two big kind of water damage [00:05:00] experiences. So obviously we're mold, how it impacts one's health, but at the time, and obviously not having the experience, had no idea to what extent it could really impact one.

[00:05:10] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So anyways, was experiencing this two-month-long insane kind of panic attack. My body just could not be at ease, regardless of going to the doctor, trying some anti-anxiety meds trying all the nervous system modalities, getting my hands on a neuroplasticity device.

[00:05:27] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: That actually even tipped me over and I felt made me feel even worse. And ultimately I end up getting into the point where I need more support. So we ultimately decided to move back home with my parents. But I'll bounce back to at least the two main water damage episodes we were, occurred in the home that we were living in.

[00:05:45] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: There was a roof leak around the sun or the skylight that- ... dripped into a closet, and I wish podcast episodes were more actor-prone to share photos, 'cause I would love to share the photo of this skylight leaked into a [00:06:00] closet. The entire ceiling just coated in all these different furry, fuzzy molds overall.

[00:06:06] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: 'Cause we didn't own that home, the owner of the home came in and took everything out, remediated it, so to speak, to as best as you can, which we'll dive into more with once we learn a little bit about CIRS, how that might not even have been or as, supportive as you could be to the health of your environment.

[00:06:25] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And then we ended up installing a shower head filter, and that for the other leak, broke the pipe and- And then all along the floor there was this dark, blacker colored mold. Granted, was it truly black mold? I don't know. But then we ended up, both my husband and I, taking that out ourselves. Still, again, at this point in time not understanding how we were genetically susceptible to not detoxing the mycotoxins well.

[00:06:48] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: But we did that, and it was about a year later after both those events where symptoms really popped off, at least for me. And again, hindsight is 20/20, this is where a lot of even my [00:07:00] husband started experiencing symptoms as well, popped up a lot closer actually to the timeline of when the second exposure kind of occurred.

[00:07:08] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Just really for him, and again, we'll talk about how some people are... How could you say? I feel, obviously I work in the health space, very in tune with my body, like I know when things are off. But, people who might not be as tapped into that or sometimes we will stereotype and say men just push things aside.

[00:07:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Definitely that kind of situation. But he started experiencing a lot like let's say a drop in energy, drop in interest in things, even getting to the point of like we'll talk about even where your brain gets so inflamed, on fire, the body's not working well, and you... A lot of people in their surge journey resonate with suicidal ideation and just, you don't want to be here.

[00:07:51] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Your body is so Like you're so disconnected from

[00:07:55] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah. It's great. And so I'll come back to defining a few things- ... so we [00:08:00] can crack it open and differentiate some of maybe the symptoms that are very hallmark of CIRS that are a little bit not always so hallmark of mold stuff in general.

[00:08:08] Christa Biegler, RD: We'll talk about that overlap. But to just mention something you said about men because it can relate to women as well, but it's a very masculine thing that we often do to survive is we just keep going, right? We're like, if we can't find an answer, you just keep going. But you were, quote unquote, "immobilized" really- totally ... by this panic attack. And I remember the only thing that was really helpful to you was to be out in nature completely and be out of the environment where you were probably exposed to more toxins, et cetera. So let's peel back what we're talking about in general about what is CIRS in general, and we've been talking a little bit about mold stuff, so let's

[00:08:50] Christa Biegler, RD: Talk about CIRS, how CIRS is a little bit different than mold, and then I think let's make sure after we define CIRS, what are some of the m- more [00:09:00] hallmark symptoms of CIRS versus mold? And you just talked a, a little bit about some, but there's more. So let's talk about what CIRS is. C-I-R-S, what does it stand for?

[00:09:09] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, and I love that you spelt it out because a lot of people think of it as S-I-R-S. 

[00:09:14] Christa Biegler, RD: You see it listed as that sometimes. 

[00:09:16] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. No, you totally do. So it stands for chronic inflammatory response syndrome. Sometimes you hear it as the term like biotoxin illness. Some people call it or refer to it brain on fire.

[00:09:26] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: It even could be like body on fire. And it's really just this multi-systemic multi-symptom inflammatory illness. So it's kind of the body's response to being exposed to biotoxins, and it's where kind of you either have high biotoxin load in your environment and/or your body can't detox these biotoxins well, which you can learn if you're potentially genetically susceptible to this where, again, these chronic inflammatory symptoms just pop off and linger as long as you're not- Yeah

[00:09:56] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: addressing your environment or helping support detox [00:10:00] elimination of these biotoxins. And recently diving into this space, there was a great talk by the Dr. Andrew Heyman, I believe, one of the, the leading doctors diving into CIRS- over the years, and he really also just actually associates SERS with very similarly to cell danger response.

[00:10:17] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So I don't necessarily- ... know if we're per se talking about something new here, and sometimes I feel SERS is- ... maybe a little bit more like siloed in specifically to biotoxins themselves, but I still feel like the body could have- ... this response to any sort of toxins in our environment or any sort of, Yeah

[00:10:34] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: inflammatory triggers. 

[00:10:35] Christa Biegler, RD: I really like that you just said that because I like to oversimplify, but then we'll get into that nuanced differentiators- ... because the treatment and how you figure it out and the treatment's a little bit different. But years ago we made a bit of a switch in practice where there was really, you were triaged into one of two buckets.

[00:10:52] Christa Biegler, RD: Are you reacting to everything or are you not reacting to everything? So basically, are you in cell danger response of some capacity? And if [00:11:00] you are, we've got to give yourself something to calm down, and that can look like many different options, and it doesn't always... there's different things that may work for different people, but essentially that.

[00:11:09] Christa Biegler, RD: And I think that- We know that COVID caused some version of- ... cell danger response. So we saw, in the last five, six years we've seen a lot of hypersensitivity, and people still don't necessarily have answers to it overall. At the time I've mentioned this several times on the podcast, when we started seeing that in practice, I didn't realize

[00:11:27] Christa Biegler, RD: I wasn't really thinking about what everyone else was seeing in practice. I was more thinking, "Oh, this is interesting." This very depleting, this virus is very aggressive and inflammatory, and it's very depleting to the system, and it kinda takes a system that is maybe operating okay and makes it so it cannot operate.

[00:11:42] Christa Biegler, RD: It just steals so much, and it's such a... It uses up so many nutrients, et cetera. And so that was what I was seeing, was that this was an additional stressor, and then people would spiral off, but it could been any one of these things. And so I like, I think calling it cell danger response is a nice [00:12:00] oversimplification in a way that could be supportive and helpful.

[00:12:03] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like, okay, what can I do that might support that? So something you just mentioned, you used the word biotoxin, and we were talking about mold. And the toxins that come from mold are mycotoxins, and questions we would get a lot of times in practice is what's the difference between fungus or candida and mold, and I like to, again, oversimplify and call mold a very aggressive toxin that is very destructive to the body, and when you see a mold, it gives off hundreds of probably invisible toxins, so mycotoxins.

[00:12:34] Christa Biegler, RD: But a biotoxin is a bigger umbrella. It includes mycotoxins. So very often we have... And I, to probably a disservice, associated CIRS and like mold stuff as overlapping for years because there is a lot of overlap, but CIRS can have some very specific symptoms. So I'll let you speak to that in a moment.

[00:12:53] Christa Biegler, RD: But biotoxins versus mycotoxins. So all mycotoxins would be biotoxins, but there are other classical [00:13:00] biotoxins that are being looked at under the CIRS picture. So can you name the other biotoxins that we're looking at? And then we'll talk about that for a bit, 'cause this, I think if someone has been digging into mold stuff and mycotoxin stuff, one of the worst things in our sort of society right now is that it's been a little frustratingly...

[00:13:17] Christa Biegler, RD: People can feel a little out of reach around it. They'll start to shut down and feel overwhelmed around it. And we try to have the perspective of, oh, these are skills we get to learn, Whether you wanted to know that around that skylight was a problem or not you didn't really have a choice.

[00:13:33] Christa Biegler, RD: It was like, - you could have tried to stick your head in the sand, right? And very commonly, as humans are, it's like, we do what we can, and then you still had issues a year later that you got to deal with whether you wanted to or not, right? So anyway. Yeah. I'll let you talk about biotoxins and anything else you want to say in there as well.

[00:13:49] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. So basically biotox- Toxins, again, there are a variety of toxins out there, but these are ones specifically produced by different organisms or biological matter. So one of the most, or how [00:14:00] can I say? Obviously, the one most talked about is mycotoxins in and of itself, but there are other ones at play, as Kristen noted.

[00:14:06] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So the other kind of big one that's talked about in the SIRS space for sure are endotoxins. So these specifically, or it's more related to bacterial toxins, or how I like to think of them, and one in particular is related to sewer gas. So we could not even be aware of that there's a sewer gas leak in our home, and those toxins I think of them off-gassing, so to speak, from the sewage are, yeah, spewing into our home, being a small particle in the air, getting into our body, and ultimately triggering the immune system overall.

[00:14:39] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And then you could also think of endotoxins from the gut perspective as well, producing- ... LPS, all of that being irritating, agitated or irritating, agitating to the body. And sometimes even this conversation comes up in the SIRS space as well as like that's why addressing gut health, if you dive into the Shoemaker protocol and then even specific twists on [00:15:00] it, so to speak, more geared toward the integrative and functional space, addressing gut health is huge also, for individuals with SIRS. So it's along that process as well. And then the last one, which I feel like this, or how can I say? Is less... it's related to the environment but it's not, I would say, the first thing automatically people start to look into. So it's actinobacteria. So these are- specific gram-negative bacteria that also can be irritating, aggravating to the immune system as well. And oftentimes they find that individuals with SIRS, because your immune system gets suppressed and you have this overgrowth of act-

[00:15:39] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: actinobacteria as you yourself are like the actinobacteria factory. So some people are testing their skin- ... to assess who I guess is high in actinobacteria because ultimately then you're dust, dander, all of that if you don't, or you're fluffing that off into your environment.

[00:15:55] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And if you don't address that, that can also be really triggering to the immune system in and of- of [00:16:00] itself. So again, what's interesting about CIRS is, yes, we've all talked about mycotoxins for so long, but like we're finally acknowledging, I feel these other things Or other types of toxins- ... in our environment that also can be just as irritating to the body.

[00:16:12] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And really I hope- Yeah, it's tricky ... to share that in the most, like, empowering way as well, versus "Oh my gosh, there's another thing I have to pay attention to." 

[00:16:20] Christa Biegler, RD: " I think we can, simplify it, and I know you've dug into a lot of different testing. So let's review that endotoxins are the trash that bacteria give off, and so when we're talking about mycotoxins we're just talking about a very aggressive form of fungal toxin.

[00:16:36] Christa Biegler, RD: That's how I like to think of it is okay, we've been... And 10 plus years ago, treating candida was, like, very popular, and I think, I still think in our general approach to this is we want to address all organisms, fungus, bacteria, parasitical- ... et cetera, typically, just because we get better results from it.

[00:16:53] Christa Biegler, RD: But along the same lines, so we've, I guess from our perspective we've been supporting those [00:17:00] endotoxins for a while, but it doesn't mean that there- you couldn't be experiencing those from the environment, right? Yeah. So you might be having not mold growing, but something causing bacteria growth.

[00:17:10] Christa Biegler, RD: Can you give an example of that? Couldn't you be having bacterial endotoxins from water damage? What are some of the other common sources in the environment of bacterial endotoxins? 

[00:17:20] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Most are associated with water damage and then the sewage gas overall. I'm actually, one more I could speak to but I feel like I'm less knowledgeable on is the fact that algae.

[00:17:30] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So sometimes there's these specific algae blooms- ... especially if you're living really close to a pond where, let's say, the water- 

... 

[00:17:36] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Is very stagnant, and then the wind's blowing it directly into your home, you have the windows ... that sort of thing. That's where that would be more so of a oh, I should pay attention to that sort of thing.

[00:17:47] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. 

[00:17:47] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And to your point, I think if there's overgrowth in the gut, as you describe the actinobacteria, I feel like the same type of thing happens with fungus or mycotoxins as well, and potentially you're gonna [00:18:00] potentially other endotoxins. It's like you do become a bit of a factory.

[00:18:03] Christa Biegler, RD: The mold wants to survive really well inside of you, so it's gonna try to set up a colony and reproduce, which can be frustrating 'cause you may deal with some symptoms or residual symptoms for honestly years, and that's been, kind of the challenge in educating people sometimes around that.

[00:18:17] Christa Biegler, RD: So with sewer gas, I think this becomes a home building conversation a little bit- ... and whether things are vented properly. And something we discuss with clients at the very beginning is it just feels like stuff we shouldn't have to, but we do anyway, right? Is, checking humidity, especially in bathrooms, because if you're not clearing humidity there may be some ventilation issues, and then you may end up being one of those people who are, you may be harboring sewer gas and you may not know it, right?

[00:18:43] Christa Biegler, RD: Because we do become nose blind to things, and it doesn't necessarily... you may not have a smell around things. So there's ventilation pipes on at least where we li- live, and I'm sure there's- ... and that's the tricky part is depending on where you live in the country the building may be slightly different as well.

[00:18:57] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh. And so I know where we [00:19:00] live those pipes can sometimes get frozen over in the wintertime and sealed shut and things like that. So those can ... If you don't understand tho- those things about your home. And then you mentioned sewer gas, but I just wanted to also highlight that we've had a few instances where people found out that they were having natural gas or propane exposures.

[00:19:20] Christa Biegler, RD: And so usually a gas company, if you have that routed to your home, i've received one letter in several years about how they should, "You gu- you should have us inspect to make sure there's no leak." But we had someone probably in the last year-ish that had almost very similar symptoms to you describing she was waking up in a panic in the night.

[00:19:39] Christa Biegler, RD: And it was interesting because for some reason she was ... I think her husband was very sick, and so she was sleeping in a different bedroom where that gas was affecting her more than in the other room. And yeah. So you can have exposure to things, in this ... So I am curious, how are people finding out that they have an exposure to sewer gas typically, like testing [00:20:00] wise?

[00:20:01] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, so you can either do somewhat similar to when you're testing for mycotoxins or mold in the home, a dust test. So there's an endotoxin kind of version of that, so it'll pick up on... It's like that DNA testing to pick up on those specific endotoxins. Or you could have a plumber out and do a smoke test, so they're let's call it adding smoke into all the pipes in your home, and you're then- kind of in your bathroom or somewhere else in the home seeing if there's any smoke then coming out of those pipes indicating that would be sewage sewage gas leaking into the home. 

[00:20:31] Christa Biegler, RD: Interesting. Would the endotoxin test pick up sewage gas residual, then? Because there's- Yes. ... Gas and and it's to the dust.

[00:20:39] Christa Biegler, RD: This goes back to, when we've been told "Remove all the dust in your home"- Yeah, totally ... "regularly," right? It's sort of the accumulation of everything.

[00:20:46] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Oh, I was just gonna say the biggest thing with the endotoxin at, or if you're doing the dust test of it, obviously it's not gonna tell you exactly where the leak is in the home, and then- that's when you have the plumber come out. So it's two different ways, yeah. 

[00:20:57] Christa Biegler, RD: I think what, where people get overwhelmed is like- Oh ... oh, it's [00:21:00] multi-step, and the internet unfortunately isn't is a tough place, from the Rabbit Hole perspective, right?

[00:21:06] Christa Biegler, RD: So it can feel a little bit all over the place. And I think our human brains do wanna skip to step 10 before step one. It's like first you're just doing at least a- Oh ... w- some kind of assessment, right? Okay. And then of course I think some tests would pick up on actinobacteria as well, 'cause it's a type of 

[00:21:23] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: bacteria- 

[00:21:24] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, so it's more-

[00:21:24] Christa Biegler, RD: so it would have the endotoxin. Is that correct? 

[00:21:26] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yep. Slimmer, similar dust test. It's yep, picking up on those actinobacteria. So you're doing multiple of the Swiffer dusting tests in your home, so at least three of them initially to assess things. 

[00:21:37] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. So we're talking about if you're in that home, but you- 

[00:21:41] Christa Biegler, RD: Moved. You had substantial symptoms and you moved. And you didn't own that home, and you left. And it took quite a while for you to figure out and diagnose with CIRS- Yeah ... after you left. And so you just described some things, different types of dust tests for those different types of [00:22:00] biotoxins.

[00:22:01] Christa Biegler, RD: But if you moved and now you just have your body carrying around... I think maybe we should clarify as well- ... the differentiator between CIRS and sometimes mycotoxins is with mycotoxins, once you get out of the environment where you're having a toxic exposure, you may often feel better.

[00:22:17] Christa Biegler, RD: And with CIRS, you may not feel better. It's like you are the factory, like you just continue, I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but however you want to say it, you continue to have the symptoms regardless of the current exposure because your body is in this essentially cell danger response or sub- like immune system freak out, suppression and freak out state, essentially. And so it's having all these symptoms really regardless of the environment at that point. And I wanna just put something in here because I think it would get missed otherwise. I've often thought over the last year and a half or two years, but like I've been grateful that your husband had symptoms.

[00:22:52] Christa Biegler, RD: Because if he didn't have symptoms, so often this is the case with people, it's like people have different scenarios where they're not genetically the same. ... Different [00:23:00] people are spending more time in that house or in a certain even a work en- an office or a work environment that's got these toxins, and so people respond or react differently than each other.

[00:23:10] Christa Biegler, RD: And if your husband had not had some symptoms, and you to help him become aware of those symptoms the thing that we haven't really discussed is I'm sure you were disregarded by s- practitioners before you found answers. 

[00:23:23] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Definitely, yeah. So I went in to have multiple appointments when I was still in kind of this two-month long what the heck is going on with my body?

[00:23:31] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Definitely chalked up to anxiety, working on, 'cause a lot of, or I wanna discuss this too, I could say when your body is toxic, inflamed, all the things, you're automatically in a more like fear-based state. And I feel that, or at least for me, brought up a lot of my past like traumas, maybe things I hadn't fully-

[00:23:50] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: processed about- ... just myself, my life, all of that sort of thing. So I was bringing that up in these appointments, trying just to give my providers as much information [00:24:00] as I could to understand what the heck's going on, what am I experiencing. And so yeah, a lot of the things were just chalked up to, oh, it's anxiety, it's past traumas you need to work through.

[00:24:08] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So I went to a couple different therapist sessions, didn't do a thing. Again, anxiety meds didn't do a thing. Didn't do a thing to improve symptoms. And I even was like, okay if I'm gonna go on an anxiety med or an SSRI, I know I can test my neurotransmitters and see where they come back.

[00:24:23] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Serotonin was happily within range. But what I found was adrenaline was, like, two, three times where it should be, so no wonder my body's constantly in this panic response. Histamine was a- also off the charts. So again, I think it's so much comes back to getting disregarded and, oftentimes, oh, just being like, "Oh, it's anxiety."

[00:24:42] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: For me it was, or it was anxiety, but not from anything I was mentally- ... initially provoking for myself. It was the body's- 

[00:24:48] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:24:49] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: fight or flight response, basically. 

[00:24:51] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh, yeah. It's how I like to think about the health triad. It's like you have this symptom, this overt anxiety, and is it [00:25:00] coming from some emotional, energetic capacity?

[00:25:02] Christa Biegler, RD: Is it coming from a nutritional or chemical response in the body, or a structural and environmental? And in this case- ... the structural and environmental, and causing the imbalances in your body, which I'll call nutritional, chemical, or over- ... essentially maxing out your body's capacity.

[00:25:17] Christa Biegler, RD: It's not where we initially think to look all the time as a society, right?

[00:25:21] Christa Biegler, RD: imagine the person going through this would be very frustrated. 

[00:25:24] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yes. Yeah, and adding too, I'm so grateful for... So my husband and I moved back to home with my parents.

[00:25:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Granted, we'll chat about how they also had mold in their home, and we're actually there now, that we're addressing, so I'll- ... chat about that eventually. But I'm so grateful for got in with a provider here locally back home, and I showed them, 'cause this is where I started diving into okay, something more is going on here.

[00:25:48] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Started learning about CIRS and understanding a little bit of the Shoemaker protocol. I'd been trialing different binders, all that, in the past to help bind to what I thought, again, was mold, these- ... mycotoxins [00:26:00] going on. But I'm so grateful she was open enough to prescribe me cholestyramine, 'cause I literally- feel like that saved me. Within about three days, I was completely out of that panic- 

... 

[00:26:12] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And could actually stabilize and start functioning again. Just for practitioners, I think it's yeah, just worthwhile to be open to listening to the true experience of your patients. And even if you're, like, a therapist or someone working in, granted not primary care provider space, if you do see someone presenting with more of these, yeah, they're being told it's anxiety-type symptoms, what more potentially is out there, especially if they- 

[00:26:38] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Aren't making, so to speak, progress with neuropro- plasticity suffer all the modalities you're offering them 

[00:26:45] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanted to make sure I touched on a couple of things. First of all, classical... I wanna talk about what you just talked about, which is Shoemaker cholesystiramines. But before we go there, some of the differentiators in CIRS are some more brain stuff, right?

[00:26:59] Christa Biegler, RD: And there was [00:27:00] something, like something with the gut really specifically, or was it fevers or something? Tell me more specifically what were some of the differentiators of CIRS versus... We have a lot of different symptoms that are dead ringers for mold, but the ones for CIRS- ... are slightly different.

[00:27:13] Christa Biegler, RD: Doesn't mean that you have to have these, but these are not classical mold ones. 

[00:27:18] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Definitely, and then if you truly- Absolutely ... wanna look into it, there's actually different symptom clusters. So you could truly Google these, I think it's 13 different- ... symptom clusters, and if you resonate with eight or at least one of the symptoms- in eight of the different categories, that really is screaming CIRS. Granted, I don't think- ... for just personally what I went through I won't say that you... that's just the standard diagnostic criteria again. So it's like, don't rule things out. If you're resonating with a variety of the symptoms but you didn't perfectly match with eight of the categories still don't necessarily rule it out.

[00:27:51] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: But big ones I would say is just constant chronic fatigue. So what I learned about myself I'm multi-susceptible, so [00:28:00] genetically susceptible to not detoxing any biotoxin, so to speak and then adding onto that, when my body's in that state, it resonates with chronic fatigue. So regardless of how much sleep, rest you get, you just don't have energy.

[00:28:14] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: I feel it ties over then into a lot of, more of the mental, emotional mood kind of presentation. So really I would just say you don't feel like yourself. Your brain feels on fire. Your nervous system at times feels on fire. I had one night where I was laying in bed, and I just felt burning sensation along my entire spine nervous system.

[00:28:37] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Anxiety pops up. Like I shared, it's that cell danger response. Then people even, once your body's just chronically in that state, you're just depressed. ... Again, if anyone's resonating with suicidal ideation kind of out- ... of nowhere for whatever reason, definitely makes me think of CIRS.

[00:28:54] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Let's see what else. Any sort of neurological symptom I would attribute- Yeah ... to [00:29:00] biotoxins that sort of thing. A lot of these biotoxins are fat soluble, so where are they going in the body? To your nerve tissue. So I experience a lot of internal vibrations. Muscle twitching was one of my first symptoms, and again, that nerves on fire sort of sensation.

[00:29:16] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Let me see. I already chatted to sleep disturbances. So often a lot of people resonate with being wide- tired but tired. They just can't fall asleep. And eventually people even get to the point of just not being able to sleep at all at night. So I was all of the GABA, L-theanine all the calming things, magnesium glycinate at night.

[00:29:36] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Nothing touched it. Eventually got to the point, again, in that two-month kind- kind of chaos spiel with my body needing to get on like a, how could you say, dementia-like med almost to just cl- calm my brain at night. So that was the only way both my husband and I could actually get to sleep.

[00:29:55] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And then the other thing I would also- ... kind of chalk up in that category is a lot of or mental mood nerve stuff, [00:30:00] like a lot of disorientation and derealization. So- 

... 

[00:30:04] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Again, back in this two-month-spial spurt of symptoms I did not feel like of this earth, is how I would describe it. Might be a hard symptom to resonate if you've never felt it before, but it's like I would look out, how could I say? Yeah, look out on the horizon and just not feel here. Almost felt like my body was like floating in a sense. Yeah, 

[00:30:25] Christa Biegler, RD: like spacey. 

[00:30:26] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Totally. Some people experience visual changes. Definitely noticed that, too, so beyond the derealization aspect, like my vision was just so blurry at different points in time.

[00:30:37] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And then maybe the last main symptoms I'll point to here that I feel like also screams CIRS is just like full body muscle or even joint pain, achiness- ... that just doesn't go away regardless of how much physical activity you're doing, how much rest you're doing. So both my husband and I, this has been one of our bigger symptoms too at different times, is just our [00:31:00] muscles just hurt, again- regardless of what we're doing and all of that. So yeah. Again, those by far don't dive into all the kind of CIRS-like symptoms but you can always Google or look up more of those symptom clusters overall. 

[00:31:18] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. So you moved out of the house, so there was no testing of the environment.

[00:31:22] Christa Biegler, RD: I'll ... Most of the time we would want someone to test their current environment 'cause things- Yeah ... can shift in the body a lot, but you needed to check the body. So I guess my first question is, I think the scenario is, I wanna be clear, I think that if most people went to their provider and asked about CIRS, their provider might just look, give them a b- blank stare, understandably, because it hasn't- ... I don't know that we have much of a standard of care. I don't know what the ICD-10- ... diagnostic criteria are. So how did you arrive at, land at the diagnosis? Maybe if there's room for if you want to what other body test ... You mentioned you [00:32:00] saw on neurotransmitter testing, and it sort of- tipped you off to say- ... "That's interesting." Yep. And then what happened? And I feel like you ended up doing a lot of your own- 

[00:32:08] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yep ... 

[00:32:09] Christa Biegler, RD: research obviously, because you couldn't find someone else to figure out- ... what to do for you, and that's where a lot of us get stuck in health, ... is looking for that.

[00:32:16] Christa Biegler, RD: So tell us a little bit about what that diagnostic process was like, however meandering it was.

[00:32:22] Christa Biegler, RD: It is hot weather season, and there is probably no better time than now to make electrolytes part of your daily routine. Electrolytes help you make energy and help get hydration into the cells so you aren't just peeing out what you put in. I've been drinking electrolytes for at least five years, and I'm always looking for a great-tasting, high-quality powder just to change up the flavors.

[00:32:44] Christa Biegler, RD: This summer, I'm doing a lot of Electrolyte Supreme from Jigsaw. It's got a great complementary vitamin and mineral profile beyond the classic electrolyte minerals of potassium, sodium, and magnesium without any sugar or artificial colors. It [00:33:00] tastes great, and it's probably my go-to for my kids, especially the lemon lime flavor as a hydrating lemonade for summer.

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[00:33:30] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, definitely meandering I'll share, but started- Yeah ... with, in the environment, we did test the home we were in. We tested my parents' home even, 'cause understood we wanted to, know what was going on in the environment.

[00:33:41] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: But beyond the environment initially, I did a mycotoxin test. So both, I believe leotoxin and aflatoxin popped up. But I didn't provoke the test overall. But as we've seen, like compared to a lot of clients we've seen in practice, I didn't necessarily feel like my results there.

[00:33:58] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Obviously okay, there's [00:34:00] mycotoxins present, but nowhere near to the extent of other clients that we've seen in practice. So that was like- ... interesting to me, one. And then it was at that kind of point in time where I started learning oh, there is different testing out there to better diagnose and understand CIRS.

[00:34:17] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So when we were living in my parents' house back then, though, unfortunately all this testing, or at least that I was gonna get access to, was via LabCorp. And knowing we're on eastern South Dakota there was no LabCorp nearby. So I actually didn't end up moving forward with that testing at that time.

[00:34:35] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Looking back now, I definitely wish I did, but it was about a year-ish so later, so officially kind of the top of this year, January where both my husband and I ended up doing the full-blown kind of CIRS panel working with a CIRS provider. But what's so awesome now, and I think you're hoping to have MoldCo on the podcast, is at least for us, of the handful of different biomarkers they run, there were four main ones that came off for us. [00:35:00] Of those- ... four main ones in MoldCo's, if you look up their starter panel, three of those markers that they test were off for us. So that's... Or what's cool about that I'm trying to get to is that is now only like $56 for people to look into versus us- granted, we did a couple or handful of other lab markers, but that's $900 that we did. You know- Yeah ... it is an investment- For- ... all of that, but,

[00:35:25] Christa Biegler, RD: For $850 less, you have access to a few markers. Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. I interview the- Yes. ... CEO of that company tomorrow morning actually so thanks for the reminder that- Cool

[00:35:36] Christa Biegler, RD: that's on the schedule tomorrow. And that was serendipitous, because you had found MoldCo, and you were like, "Wow, this is really crazy that they are doing these markers for this cheap." Which is a- ... we are seeing a little bit of a revolution in testing, and it's changing pretty quickly.

[00:35:49] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm just spectating a little bit- ... and kinda digging in a little bit, but it's... I think that this is ultimately awesome whenever we have access to things cheaper, 'cause that's our frustration as- ... practitioners and [00:36:00] humans, is we're trying to figure out how... 'Cause a lot of times with a test, the problem is, it's such a broad conversation for another day.

[00:36:07] Christa Biegler, RD: But, you don't always get what you want from a test, even though you think. Yeah. You're like, "Oh, I just wanna do this one test," and it covers everything. It's like no matter what we do, it's like you have to understand it a little bit more. And so- ... so this has been exciting.

[00:36:19] Christa Biegler, RD: For $850 less, you can find these few markers that are really specific to essentially having CIRS-like symptoms or endotoxins- Totally ... or mycotoxins that are basically inflammatory responses- ... in the body. Yeah. 

[00:36:32] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, and if you bring up these markers to your doctor, of course, they'd be like, "What?

[00:36:35] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: What are these?" Understood. Yeah. So yeah, it's nice that you on your own could just order them, go to a LabCorp- ... and yeah- ... get them ran. 

[00:36:41] Christa Biegler, RD: Got it. So you both did big panels. Yep. You were gonna do it before. And you, so there was I'll just fill this in a little bit- ... because people heard you living in one place with the two mold exposures- that we talked about. Then you moved home, and then you moved across the country to a different home. Yeah. And then you moved home again. So I think what you mean is you tested [00:37:00] both that home and the current home, right?

[00:37:02] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yep. So we've tested, yeah, all those homes we lived in. And again, I think this is where, too, hopefully lending some insight, and we haven't actually talked a lot about the environmental part.

[00:37:12] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Maybe that'll be, like, a part two, so to speak. But in each of those homes, there was some sort of water damage going on. And even speaking to being back in my parents' home it helps me connect the dots on, so obviously did testing here, even hired an IEP, so an indoor environmental professional.

[00:37:31] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Deciding we wanna go the route of improving my parents' home to make it, quote-unquote, "SIRS safe," or less irritating to our bodies. But yeah, all that to say there's always something in different homes. And looking back on even before I went to college and moved out of my parents' home, there were periods of time where I was very probably SIRS-like in this home- yeah ... because of the mold exposure we found in the basement which totally could be preventable, and that's what I wanna talk about more, at [00:38:00] least in the environmental aspect of it was just a humidity condensation issue in the basement for my parents. And then we actually provoked an issue in and of itself by trying to check the attic kind of space, so to speak, insulated attic space in the home.

[00:38:17] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: It's sealed off, obviously, from the rest of the home, so we opened that up, and my dad didn't properly close that off, so you're having the warm or warm, but the cool air when the AC's on- ... in the home with the warm attic. And then that kind of created a little mold spot in that little- door, let's call it, so to speak. So again, a lot of these mold exposures could be preventable, and especially just increasing the knowledge or you better understanding your home. That knowledge there can go so, so far. 

[00:38:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think, that's just a, we get to understand wherever we live, our body- and our home. And if we spend a lot of time in a car we have the opportunities. Yeah. We, we can delegate some [00:39:00] things, but there are some things that are harder to delegate. And you can maybe delegate to an extent, but having some general understanding so you're not getting, for lack of a better term, screwed over is- useful as well, right? Okay, so we talked about differentiators between SIRS and mold. We talked about how you finally got a mold diagnosis by seeing- ... a SIRS practitioner. Do you know anything about the- standard of care for SIRS? Is it still just fringy, there's no ICD? Do we have any diagnostic criteria around SIRS right now?

[00:39:28] Christa Biegler, RD: You don't have to know the answer to that. So I'm not sure. 

[00:39:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, I'm not sure 'cause my mom, she's a nurse, works in a hospital, I swear she said she was looking into it and how it popped up on her end or back-ended healthcare- ... let's call it. But there are, like, if you properly run the labs, granted if you take it- to your general or your primary care provider, they still might not, again, understand SIRS. But having these labs, and if they're open to looking into them, will be adequate information to help you, ... determine next steps. Yeah ... and most people move forward with Shoemaker protocol, granted [00:40:00] again understanding SIRS is somewhat like cell danger response.

[00:40:04] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So not necessarily does everyone make progress with Shoemaker Protocol, and I think that's a conversation at play right now in that health space. Not dissing it by any means, 'cause I think it's so amazing. Again, getting on the cholestyramine was huge for me. The fact that the conversation in the cell danger response world is kinda like ultimately the cell signaling that's going on in the body.

[00:40:27] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: What are, like, safety signals the cells send off to each other? And one of those is VIP. That's one of the last steps in the Shoemaker Protocol, so I think it's actually amazing. But again, there's always, I feel more to potentially someone's story. So whether- Yeah ... or not you wanna pursue just the Shoemaker Protocol alone or other modalities as well, completely, up to you and your symptoms.

[00:40:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. Let's talk a little bit about Shoemaker Protocol- ... because you've mentioned it. You said, "Oh, this breakthrough, I had a provider that was open enough to prescribe-" ... "to me cholestyramine," also known as Welchol I [00:41:00] think, as a, maybe a brand name or something? 

[00:41:01] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So similar in the fact that it's a bile acid sequestrant.

[00:41:04] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So it's binding to the, quote, unquote, "toxic bile" with those mycotoxins or whatever- ... biotoxins in it to healthfully poop it out, basically.

[00:41:12] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:41:12] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: But Welchol, I think is a little not as strong, so to speak- ... as the cholestyramine. But for some people, when you're so sensitive, that often can be- a nice go-to starting point as well. 

[00:41:24] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. And I'll just mention, bile is awesome 'cause it's like- ... this soapy stuff that cleans up crap in our body, but if we're full of toxic crap and the bile is full of toxic crap- ... then this is like, we kinda consider it, like we would consider it sort of a binder, right?

[00:41:38] Christa Biegler, RD: ... I don't know what it was used for on late, isn't it a cholesterol medication? For lo- 

[00:41:41] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yep, yep. Yeah. Lowers cholesterol. So sometimes too, I think it can be a more approachable way to chat with your doctor about it- ... in the fact that- 

[00:41:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Something familiar. 

[00:41:50] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yep.

[00:41:50] Christa Biegler, RD: They're familiar with it.

[00:41:51] Christa Biegler, RD: And if you try it and it's helpful, it's like, "Oh, I might be onto something." So when we talk about Dr. Shoemaker- 

... 

[00:41:57] Christa Biegler, RD: He is actually credited [00:42:00] for the origination of all of this really, right? Yep. From the '90s. So he recognized that people had kinda multisystem issues from mold and from other issues.

[00:42:07] Christa Biegler, RD: He actually found that it he, He saw it after a different kind of outbreak where he was from, I guess- ... related to some kind of bacteria or something. And so much like your vision was challenged, now He has a vision test. There is a vision test on- ... the Shoemaker Protocol website, and very early in my mold days we would use it and then we didn't use it.

[00:42:25] Christa Biegler, RD: But in your case, maybe supportive. But he really has this whole process, and one of the core tenants is this essentially cholesterol medication. Yeah. So that's what you're talking about. So are you still working through Shoemaker Protocol? Is that how you work with your CIRS provider?

[00:42:40] Christa Biegler, RD: And So basically in the CIRS community, there's probably Shoemaker Protocol, and then what are the other options? And that's maybe the debated thing, but are there other options or is it mostly Shoemaker Protocol? Or even adjustments, some version of that. 

[00:42:54] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: I'd say there's a gamut, and even with certain steps in the protocol, 'cause ultimately I wanna say it's a [00:43:00] 12-step process or I can't even remember off the top of my head. My husband and I are still in steps one and two, so we are hopefully next week or in the following week getting the official remediation kind of plans for my parents' basement- and then that one spot kind of upstairs. So moving forward with remediation. So step one is removal from exposure. 

[00:43:19] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: You can be in step two, where being on the binder cholestyramine. Some people use more food-based alternatives, even potentially, what I call 'em or think about 'em as standard functional medicine binders, your charcoal, zeolites, other things.

[00:43:34] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So right now at least my husband and I are hanging out in that step one or two. Step three, depending on, that's where I feel where it potentially really starts to vary in terms of how people move forward with things. I want to say step three is testing for MARCoNS.

[00:43:46] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So again, if immune system is suppressed, potentially some individuals get staph colonization. The nasal passages. So it's antibiotic resistant. So that can be huge in terms of [00:44:00] people making progress. So thankfully both my husband and I tested negative for that, 'cause I know sometimes that's a big hold-up for some individuals.

[00:44:07] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So then I believe the step after that is where things can vary in terms of working on gut health, improving hormone health, all those sorts of other symptoms going on. And then ultimately you're getting to the point where you can add in your VIP spray- ... to help increase MSH and just really get brain functioning back online.

[00:44:27] Christa Biegler, RD: Would you say that for the most part the cholesestyramine is what's holding you in a feeling, like some stability while you work through the environment? 

[00:44:38] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, stability there's some- Makes sense ... different immune stabilizers I'm playing around with at the moment. Bile flow, supporting that.

[00:44:46] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: 'Cause one of the biggest things that I didn't chat through when my symptoms popped off back in 2024 is also when I started resonating with a lot of different symptoms of like sluggish bile flow. So I feel like there's a balance [00:45:00] here that needs to be at play is yeah, we can add in a binder, but what if someone's struggling with bile flow?

[00:45:05] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: We also need to help- 

[00:45:06] Christa Biegler, RD: Which is most people. 

[00:45:07] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah. 

[00:45:08] Christa Biegler, RD: A lot of people. Push that 

[00:45:08] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: along. 

[00:45:09] Christa Biegler, RD: Exactly, because you got to get the toxins out. So it's always a little bit of a fluid conversation- ... where you're assessing, intervening, assessing, intervening- ... and you get to know your body as well.

[00:45:21] Christa Biegler, RD: So this VIP spray is a type of a peptide and- to improve, like you said, neuro function. 

[00:45:27] Christa Biegler, RD: And it's intriguing to me. I'm curious why you can't use it earlier on. Is it like, "Oh, this is out of order," or it doesn't work the same?

[00:45:35] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm just curious. 

[00:45:36] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, so kind of, some practitioners that I'm aware of are actually even playing around with adding in a little bit of lower doses of the VIP- ... sooner. Because again, how I would describe, it's one of the molecules in the cell danger response that, like- signals safety to the body. So I understand not adding it, like, when you're in full-blown exposure still. It's oh- ... it's good that your body's communicating to you- ... "Hey, something's off," versus then trying to say, "Oh, no, it's [00:46:00] safe." 

[00:46:00] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:46:00] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: some people, if you add in VIP too soon, you actually just symptoms go wonky again.

[00:46:05] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So it's again- ... this balance of oh, what is the right point in time- ... of the protocol to add it in for you? 

[00:46:11] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think that's a good point in general, that as you move through your health journey and as you make progress in different ways, you may tolerate or benefit from things that you didn't see or- Yeah

[00:46:22] Christa Biegler, RD: you were unable to observe a benefit from in the past. I've been having that conversation with a particular one-on-one client a lot lately. It's just what did not work before you may see some- ... shifts from six months after the fact. So okay, very interesting. So we talked through 

[00:46:37] Christa Biegler, RD: I think we covered CIRS versus mycotoxins pretty well or that there's a very much an overlap, but CIRS is generally overall biotoxins, which includes more types of toxins overall. And it may affect the body differently, especially neuro especially with nervous system in a way that mold may impact you, but can feel a little more uncontrolled with that cell danger response.

[00:46:59] Christa Biegler, RD: [00:47:00] We talked through your story, some of the testing, how you had a breakthrough as you trialed cholestyramine, and how you've been working with a CIRS provider. It feels like that's a unfair summary of what the last year and a half has been like- ... for you. There's so much. And you said you brought up so many great little gems as well, right?

[00:47:17] Christa Biegler, RD: Where it's like this could have been prevented. And prevention is always a hindsight thing, right? 

[00:47:21] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah ... 

[00:47:22] Christa Biegler, RD: always, right? And we're gonna take care of this environment. But as we sort of wrap for this episode- ... what would you want to leave people with or communicate with people that you feel like we missed or we need to include, or just however you would want to make sure we make sure we do this as best justice as possible within the hour?

[00:47:39] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: Yeah, like you said, I don't feel at all an hour could sum up the past- ... year or two years of experience overall. But the biggest thing I wanna portray get across to people is trust your body, especially if you're symptomatic. Don't give up. Don't lose hope. Even with if you actively even know you're in a, or have SIRS at the moment and are going through [00:48:00] flares and all of that, there, it's such an ebb and flow or a little bit of a rollercoaster, so you do have to, really tap into yourself and ride those waves and know if today's a bad day with symptoms, there will be better days.

[00:48:12] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: And yeah, just as best as you can, too, finding someone who you can talk to about it. So if your doctor- ... somebody else is just pushing, or pushing you aside, not acknowledging things, there are people out there who can- ... provide you support, who can, shed some more light on the experience you're going through.

[00:48:30] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: So don't give up hope. Keep looking for answers. Also, not doing it in, as best as you can, in a fear-based way, but also knowing that's a human response, too, so it's okay if you're going through it in a little bit of a fear-based way as well. But yeah, ultimately reach out for the support you need or keep searching for it.

[00:48:48] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on today, and if anyone has questions about this topic, I would highly encourage them- ... to go to the podcast page on the website and to submit questions. And [00:49:00] I think Jen has already got a lot of ideas for part two for this. And I know that this has been a very challenging period of her life, and at the same time it's so weird how we go through these experiences, and I've also seen just how much she has grown, because you've had to.

[00:49:16] Christa Biegler, RD: Whether it sucked a, all the way along. But I've seen you really catapult forward in a lot of ways in your own ... With this journey. There's just something about a personal journey that is very educational. You can't read in a book. 

[00:49:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: There's no- It's a bonkers thing

[00:49:29] Jenna DeKok, MS, RD: there's no way yeah, no way I would have this level of depth and understanding- Yeah ... of something like SIRS unless you go through it.

[00:49:35] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. You understand it at a very different intimate level. So thank you so much for coming on today, and hopefully we'll have you back soon- Yeah ... for a part two.